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sAviOr
08-04-2010, 07:35 PM
This is a place to discuss the Zerg race and strategies to use, they can be ZvZ/ZvP/ZvT or just basic build orders to start the game with, please make sure you indicate what you are actually talking about.

Also please be respectful, and if you don't agree with someones ideas please don't just be mean or bash them, try to help them out with new or better ideas.

Zerg vs Protoss:

There are a few things to try against a walling off protoss, you also need to trust your gut a bit as well.

If he walls off with 1 gate and you run up the ramp, try to scout a cybernetics core, if there is one he is either going fast void or phnx, or he might be doing some kind of 4 gate timing push with stalkers / sentries / zealots.
You need to use your lings to contain him and run up his ramp once in a while to see what kind of force he has, hardly any gateway units = air rush. At this point in time you will want to make 2-3 queens, if you feel uncomfortable with your queen micro and saving energy for transfuse/pulling your queens back before they die you should also throw down an evo chamber to get spore colonies. If you see him getting a huge gateway force, then your best bet would be to throw down a few spine crawlers at your ramp(remember its very important for zerg to creep out with that queen) and get some roaches up to block the ramp(plus they absolutely own zealots).

If you find your defense getting weak make more roaches and zerglings(very important to swarm his units with these if he gets into your base). If you can hold off his 4 gate push then go into mutas(lair should be teching asap) and try to expand, move your spine crawlers up to your naturals choke once you creep up to it.

Basic Zerg Strategy:

The biggest part of playing zerg in starcraft is contain and expand, try to force your opponent into a build they don't want to use(like getting phoenix to counter your mutas) because its a lot easier for zerg to tech swap then it is for any other race. He 4gates, you defend and go muta, force him to switch into a somewhat phoenix-heavy army, bam switch into zergling hydra or roach hydra and do a timing push on his base.

A lot of the game is about scouting as well, never be afraid to sack an overlord to scout his base, just run the thing right into his base to see what he is doing.

Torte de Lini
08-04-2010, 08:04 PM
The huge problem I have is getting any economy going while staying on top of my defenses to take down whatever he has.

sAviOr
08-04-2010, 08:43 PM
The huge problem I have is getting any economy going while staying on top of my defenses to take down whatever he has.

Spit on the hatch with your queen and drone drone drone drone

Just keep building drones

mala_chor
08-06-2010, 12:07 PM
You have to strike a balance between defensive units and droning, so its really vital for you to scout, find when hes going to attack and then bulk up your defense.

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 02:19 PM
scouting isn't a problem. Usually a zergling at the entrance and an overseer to take a quick gander.

It's gathering enough forces to take him down that really kills me.
I 8-pooled a toss today and got lucky, doubt that'd work again.

sAviOr
08-06-2010, 03:18 PM
scouting isn't a problem. Usually a zergling at the entrance and an overseer to take a quick gander.

It's gathering enough forces to take him down that really kills me.
I 8-pooled a toss today and got lucky, doubt that'd work again.

You need to use your second or third set of 25 energy from your queen to make a creep tumor so you can creep to your ramp at least, you also need to scout the protoss base to see what kind of push he will be making. If you see some kind of fast gate push or 4gate push then make spine crawlers and maybe a few roaches.

Mutas are VERY VERY effective against protoss, because forcing them into phoenix is a huge investment and you can easily swap into something else. Against toss you basically want to have ultras be your army for late game, ultra + hydra, with mutas for early harass.

The ONLY way zerg will win a 200/200 food fight against protoss is with ultras, and make sure you keep your larva production going, if you get into a 200 food fight against toss and lose, you can easily get back to max while he would be at around 100ish food, which basically means...you win

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 03:22 PM
You talk as if I have this vast amount of resources. I'm always struggling to have enough resources to support a decent drone line-up and defense.

By the time I have things settled, I have maybe 6 hydras and 20 zerglings [less if they get hit while at Toss' base]. I never go mutas because it's so expensive.

sAviOr
08-06-2010, 04:08 PM
You talk as if I have this vast amount of resources. I'm always struggling to have enough resources to support a decent drone line-up and defense.

By the time I have things settled, I have maybe 6 hydras and 20 zerglings [less if they get hit while at Toss' base]. I never go mutas because it's so expensive.
Expand expand expand, go watch some of artosis or idras play

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 04:42 PM
You talk as if I have this vast amount of resources. I'm always struggling to have enough resources to support a decent drone line-up and defense.

By the time I have things settled, I have maybe 6 hydras and 20 zerglings [less if they get hit while at Toss' base]. I never go mutas because it's so expensive.
Expand expand expand, go watch some of artosis or idras play

Again, not enough minerals.

After those 22 lings go off. I have 4 options: 1. mass drones to recuperate my economy.
2. Upgrade to Lair
3. Expand [but without any drones, there's really no point in doing that].
4. Set up 4 spine crawlers and mass lings.

Your ideas are a bit far-fetched.

sAviOr
08-06-2010, 05:52 PM
[quote="Torte de Lini":2op9nbsd]You talk as if I have this vast amount of resources. I'm always struggling to have enough resources to support a decent drone line-up and defense.

By the time I have things settled, I have maybe 6 hydras and 20 zerglings [less if they get hit while at Toss' base]. I never go mutas because it's so expensive.
Expand expand expand, go watch some of artosis or idras play

Again, not enough minerals.

After those 22 lings go off. I have 4 options: 1. mass drones to recuperate my economy.
2. Upgrade to Lair
3. Expand [but without any drones, there's really no point in doing that].
4. Set up 4 spine crawlers and mass lings.

Your ideas are a bit far-fetched.[/quote:2op9nbsd]

Not at all.

Say you do a rush and drone to 14 then ling to 26. Overlord + extra larva straight up to 34 then to 42, then expand.

That gives you like 30 drones, 6 on gas 24 on minerals. More then enough to have the minerals to expand, have a small amount of spine crawlers for defense, and to tech to lair and think about going into some mutas to harass or hydras for your army, after another expansion you can think about going into ultras

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 06:07 PM
I overlord at 22 and then I drone it [from 26] to 42.

Expansion [you start expanding] and you still don't have a lair while the protoss counter pushes with his 12 zealot and 2 stalkers.

What do you have? Two bases to defend, maybe two queens and 4 spine crawlers.

Good luck with that.

Edit: you're also excluding the possibility of void rays, thus two queens and baneling nest or roach warren

sAviOr
08-06-2010, 06:10 PM
I overlord at 22 and then I drone it [from 26] to 42.

Expansion [you start expanding] and you still don't have a lair while the protoss counter pushes with his 12 zealot and 2 stalkers.

What do you have? Two bases to defend, maybe two queens and 4 spine crawlers.

Good luck with that.

2 queens 22 zerglings and 4 spine crawlers can easily beat 12 zealots and 2 stalkers

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 06:18 PM
I just did your idea.
I got owned by 8 mutas.

Spine Crawlers, useless.
Two Queens? Demolished.
Zerlings? died.

sAviOr
08-06-2010, 06:23 PM
I just did your idea.
I got owned by 8 mutas.

Spine Crawlers, useless.
Two Queens? Demolished.
Zerlings? died.

You tried ZvP thinking in a ZvZ match and you're complaining?

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 06:36 PM
I just did it against Protoss.
Thankfully he didn't counterpush, allowing me to wipe the floor.

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 07:47 PM
There is no damn way to scout early game with Zerg.

I just got owned by hellions and there was nothing I can do because I can't see shit, they all wall themselves.

Can't go in with Overlords because they just get shot.

Roland Deschain
08-06-2010, 08:19 PM
You should get your first expansion at 14 dudes, unless there's been some drastic changes since the beta.

Torte de Lini
08-06-2010, 08:44 PM
You should get your first expansion at 14 dudes, unless there's been some drastic changes since the beta.

Good one.

drawkward
08-07-2010, 05:03 AM
yup, exp at 14 is still standard, as you have tons of money and no larvae at that point. if you scout a rush you need some counter forces, but it's easy to defend with queen micro

Torte de Lini
08-07-2010, 08:52 AM
Why would you expand when you have little to no drones to support two bases?

drawkward
08-07-2010, 02:05 PM
Why would you expand when you have little to no drones to support two bases?

because at the cost of one drone, you get double your larvae output just from having the hatchery.

Torte de Lini
08-07-2010, 02:10 PM
But no economy to support 8 larvae

drawkward
08-07-2010, 05:09 PM
I suspect you are going gas too early. You should only get gas around 13ish, and only mine 100 to get speedlings, then take them back onto minerals. Here is a ZvP & ZvT guide from a top-tier player, that explains the possible opening build orders you could use:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=133023 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133023)

Also, stop being so antagonistic to people who are trying to help you, it's childish

sAviOr
08-07-2010, 06:45 PM
I suspect you are going gas too early. You should only get gas around 13ish, and only mine 100 to get speedlings, then take them back onto minerals. Here is a ZvP & ZvT guide from a top-tier player, that explains the possible opening build orders you could use:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=133023 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133023)

Also, stop being so antagonistic to people who are trying to help you, it's childish

Uhm don't follow that to the dot, it really really depends on your build and your plan for the game

Sure it works if you are going to mass speedling into expand, but if you want to tech into fast mutas or hydras or if you need roaches to counter a 4gate push, taking drones off of gas is a horrible idea. You really can't just say 'that is my strategy' you need to play and plan ahead of the current phase of the game.

drawkward
08-07-2010, 08:49 PM
that was my strat for countering the 2gate zealot push, of course if you scout something else you'll need to adapt, but a lot of ZvP is surviving that early pressure and getting your nat up

Torte de Lini
08-07-2010, 08:50 PM
Really? All my toss games is surviving the mid-game armada.